MELBOURNE CUP QUALIFYING ?

I think the current Melbourne Cup qualifying clauses are fine but to keep out the riff rath they should introduce one more clause that reads - To qualify for the Melbourne Cup a horse must have previously won a race at Group or Listed level. Why ? because since Vintage Crop won the cup only one placegetter (Beekeeper - 3rd to Media Puzzle) has managed to run a place in the big one without having first won a black type race. That`s 53 out of 54 horses that have won or placed having won at black type level prior to their Cup placing.
This would mean Warringa (GB) & Changingoftheguard (GB), who both retired without ever winning a black type race, would have made way for Vigor who won the G2 Makybe Diva & was 3rd in the Caulfield Cup in what would have been 2 of 3 lead ups into the Cup, had he gained a run.
This season Saptapadi (winner of a UK maiden only), At First Sight (winner of a Irish maiden only) & Macedonian would have made way for horses like Bauer winner of multiple Group races.
Lloyd must have been scratching his head as Tanby winner of a listed race a week before the Cup (proving he is in form) can`t get a run in the Cup, while stablemate (and runner up in that listed race), At First Sight qualifys only having won one race in its career a maiden in Ireland.

Yeah im not talking about the Cup im talking in general

People are over reacting to this years Melbourne Cup where the internationals dominated and a lot of our better stayers injured themselves during the year and didnt compete in the Spring. Last year we had Maluckyday, So You Think and Zipping finishing behind the winner

Spot on surround12 and if rumour proves correct Lucas Cranach - this years 3rd placegetter is being looked at as a prospective Sire as well. Sure - his Daddy (Mamool) ran last in the Cup but did pull up lame in all fairness.
Interesting days ahead for the Australian Stayers breeding scenario. Time to play catch up by all accounts.
Anyway - change the rules to winning a listed or group race to qualify for the Cup. Keep out the never will be's and hopefully with good handicapping there will be plenty more tight finishes and excitement ahead.

TheJugada I assure you i am not over reacting to anything. I am happy to have 24 Internationals run in the Cup if they are the best 24 around. I have no problem with the pointy end of the race, its these one`s who finish 20 and 30 lengths behind that bother me the most. i would be happy id 6-8 lengths covered the field first to last that`s a better spectacle to me. The stats show 54 of 55 placegetters (that`s 18 Cups with a deadheat third on one occassion) have won a black type race prior to their cup run. I want to see horses like Warringah for example who had poor form, ran last keeping Vigor (a group 2 winner in the weeks leading up to the cup, 3rd in Caulfield Cup) out of the race, then raced here another 16 or so times managing to win a class 3 in brisbane. Records show this horse had no chance of being in the finish, while Vigor may have had.

Ok LS, i dont have any problem with anything you just said.

There is never going to be 6-8 lengths covering a field of 24 of 2 miles though and nor should there be

Yeah i agree with you on that, 6-8 lengths is a pipe dream but i would like the race to be the best and as even as it can be, in the case mentioned above at that time in `09 i think Vigor would have finished closer to the place getters than Warringah managed, however in reality he may not have, guess we will never know but to me its more logical to have the CC 3rd placegetter, (qualified by winning the Makybe Diva in October), than Warringah handicapped 3 months prior to the race - off the back of a 3y open hcp win - run in our most prestegeous race.

I've long thought that the best thing for racing in our country would be to seriously cut the slipper prize money. Our obsession with fast two year olds is madness. If things don't change, we'll get less and less durable champions with more and more horses that blow us away for a single 2 year old prep and then disappear or subsequently fail, its seriously heading that way now.

I love horse racing but I hate the slipper. And don't get me started on the magic millions...

I don't want to bash the Slipper or sprint racing. We have arguably the best sprinters in the world and the Slipper has played a role in that.

I'd just like our racing programme to recognise that so much of our racing is 1600m or less when our biggest race is over two miles. And that horses who perform at a mile plus can often race to 8yo while not many sprinters can do that. I think the most common age to win the MC is 7yo. Very few early Slipper types are seen past 4yo - many/most never win after 2yo. Most races everyday are also open to horses over 3yo and so much of the emphasis is placed on breeding/prizemoney for 3yo and under. Hard to expect Australia to have 15-20 stayers capable of taking on the world's best in the MC field with that culture.

Making a stakes win a qualifying clause is fair and the stats back it up, but it's a shame when local stake winners can finish no closer than 8th. Last years Derby winner was 17L adrift. Pitiful to think that the Australian Stakes winners could potentially keep better horses out of the race!!!!
Maybe if the likes of Efficient, Rebel Raider, Maluckyday, So You Think, and Littorio had been sound/available then things would've been different this year.

With the MC being the jewel in our racing crown it's possible that the local industry could be geared a bit more towards producing top shelf stayers.

Agree mostly with what you have to say there dr.whiz although I struggle to think of a Derby winner that went closer than 4th in the last 15 years or so {Elvestroem] or any other 3yo than SYT that got close (3rd wasn't he).
Think Efficient was over the hill anyway and the best chance of a "local" may be Atlantic Jewel next year if it's only a pulled hammy as the punting public were told that stopped her competing in the Oaks.
SYT would have been an interesting proposition given his finish in the quickest Arc De Triomphe ever run this year and his previous Cup attempt as a 3yo.
The "local" breeders need to sort their stuff out before a "local" has a chance to win.
Qualifying clauses could do with a shake up to make it an even playing field for all and black type WINS being given preference over black type placegetters would be a start in the right direction imo.

Did Nothin' Leica Dane run 3rd in the mid 90's?

2nd to Doreimus in '95

Might have been the last derby winner to back up?

g'day people, first time on a blog, but been enjoying reading your comments.I think the derby winner has to carry wfa, whilst most older horses get in well under hence not many 3yo's running in the cup. The problems for local breeders trying to breed for a cup goes far. for instance High quality stallions shuttling from northern hemisphere like High Chaparell stand in Aust for about 3 times the fee they do over there and Zabeel and Carnigee standing in NZ aren't real cheep either. you'd have to know your mare is worth the value of a service fee before matching with any stallion. A few years ago yearling sales were in real trouble as well until Harvey and Singo stepped in offering massive buyers bonuses on 2&3yo races as well as states offering their own incentive schemes. this did help save the industry to a degree, but added to the problem of quality stayers that is not going to be fixed by local breeders

anyone read the herald sun today about Shocking standing at stud in NZ? i think it said he's going $9000 a pop and he has 150 mares lined up. lucky lucky b*stard...

Gday. I personally think it is way too tough for the early 3yo to back up 3 days later. I was mentioning the Oaks and Derbies as I have always thought they were a natural starting point for future stayers and many people look at the horses who have done well in the 3yo staying classics to step up as 4yo and 5yo and contest the Caulfield and Melbourne Cup's. One bookie already has VRC Derby runner up Induna installed as fave for next year's MC and the winner, Sangster, is in the top couple. Come Autumn and the AJC Derby winner will be pushed towards the top of betting. Rightly or wrongly.

I think you`ll find the average win age for the Melbourne Cup is in fact 5yo. I don`t think SYT ran in the derby and his 3rd in the Melbourne Cup was following his second Cox Plate as a 4yo. Efficient was the first Derby winner to back up to win the cup the next year since Phar Lap. Phar Lap actually ran in the 1929 Melbourne Cup after winning the Derby where he finished 3rd to Nightmarch. He backed up and won in 1930 Cup as a 4yo, then was weighted out as a 5yo in 1931 Cup won by Whitenose. The Vic Derby has thrown up some placegetters in the Cup but not many have gone on to win the Cup in the Derby winning year or in subsequent years.

For those interested in the age stats for the Melbourne Cup winner here is the breakdown:
3yo: 23 times (last achieved by Skipton 1941)
4yo: 43 times (last achieved by Shocking 2009)
5yo: 45 times (last achieved by Dunaden 2011)
6yo: 28 times (last achieved by Delta Blues 2006)
7yo: 10 times (last achieved by Makybe Diva 2005)
8yo: 2 imes (last achieved by Catalogue 1938 - credited as the oldest winner of the Cup)

Since my stats regarding black type placegetters were since Vintage Crop thats actually 19 Cups not 18 as previously stated. So its actually 57 of 58 horses were previous black type winners.

Since Vintage Crop (and including Vintage Crops Cup) the age stats are:
4yo: 4 times.
5yo: 6 times.
6yo: 6 times.
7yo: 3 times.

Hey steve. How do you work out your age stats? All the form guides had Dunaden listed as a 6yo. Are you using their actual birth date or does it have something to do with being northern hemisphere born? Intersested in your opinion. TA.

It is true that the age stats are tenuous as horses are 2 different ages at one stage of the year as Europe have the horses birthday as a different time of year. I got the age stats from a website and although i`m not sure, i am guessing they have worked it out on Australian birthdays from the time the horse was foaled.http://melbourne-cup.betting-directory.com/age.php
I think the major thing to glean from the stats is that it is now a much more classy race effectivey making it impossible for 3yo and 8yo years old to win. Especially as the Derby has now been removed as an exempt race the year after Nothin` leica Dane used the clause. I feel the public spat in the newspapers between Tommy Smith and daughter Gai Waterhouse over how a Cup start would impact the horses future was embarring for the VRC, hence the rule change.