Black Caviar on 1400m Orr Stakes on Caulfield?

Can Black Caviar still win on a 1400m race? and who will be its rival for that race...?

yes/nothing

everybody believe that no one can beat this horse...the question now is who will be the 2nd best to her...?

ummm...heard of Frankel?

I am assuming justlucky meant at her next Aussie start, which is over 1400m in the C F Orr ( I think).

Southern Speed will give it a good shake

Lol, no

yes thesilver that's right...

Frankel from england ranked 1 in the WTR...what i mean is who's the 2nd best to lack Caviar in Aus..?

Hay List

1400 mtrs HAY LIST has never been beaten good & heavy track - Black Caviar never raced 1400 mtrs
could be the worlds best sprinter up to 1300 mtrs then nothing, IMO the way BC wins 1200 mtr races she will get 1600 mtrs but we have not seen this yet.

Oh, daylight second in Oz up to 6f but be interesting to see S.Speed step out in the Orr

ever wonder why Black Caviar keeps on winning...??

Tony Barber?

I have often wondered that. Never been able to come up with an answer......

maybe she always wins because they always put her in a race where everything is in favor with her...

yeah, how dare they put her in such races ! Iknow if i was her owner I would put her in the Melbourne Cup, because I wouldn't want my horse to win. Thats just greedy wanting her to win races, what the bloody hell are they thinking!! mindless twits!!

That was harsh TheSilver:( that's how they does it...they put the horse on a race where no one can actually beat it...did someone watch her race last night at Moonee Valley...

As i said, just greedy. But I am pretty sure she might just have picked up a few group 1's in her career, so she might just have a touch of ability. I am no genius though, so its just a guess :)
Maybe they should build some rocket horses and enter them in the races against her. Then we will see how tough she is !! Yeah, that'll learn her good n proper!

As the owner of a triple Rosehill winner i would like to be able to pick a $42,000 plus race like that and just know you are collecting after the race

she has an ability no doubt about that...but dont you think in order to know the ability of the horse u should put it in a race where it will give all that it got even though it will loose rather than put in a race where it will race very relaxed and no pressurein it...there's no excitement in that...

If she draws barrier 1 in the Orr and there is at least 12 horses in the race then she could face trouble. She is an absolute super star but the fact is that she has never encountered a chequered run, a wide run or interference. The other jocks get out of its way too. Id love to see Nolen caught up behind slow ones, 2 or 3 horses moving around his outside, see him finally get desperate, bump out the dingos and really let rip for an astonishingly quick 200m sectional to still win by lengths! I think she could.

sometimes i think it only wins because other dont have the guts to compete against it..and what happened she's ending racing on a small field....ending up winning

well, i can guarantee one way to put ressure on it, and that's if I back it. Any horse i back seems to lose a leg during the race. So, I will do you a favour,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,next start i will back Black Caviar, and tat way, it should even it up for the rest of the field. That's the best I can do I am afraid

wonder why his trainer didnt mention anything about the Dubai world cup..?

because Ascot is the preferred destination I THINK. The cav is not guaranteed to run at Dubai, just a maybe at this stage.
correct me if im wrong

It's not like she's running in the provincial circuit. She faced full fields before everyone in Australia knew her ability. She's running in group races throughout her prep with a group one the final. Moody is not dodging anyone he's racing her in the best sprint races that line up with her prep. She carried the grandstand to win the Newmarket, won the lightning hard held. She has been proven against australias best. Other trainers are dodging her and rightfully so, bar hay list (injury free) and sepoy no horse in Australia or for that matter the world will get close to her up to 1400m. The notion that she's only good because of her opposition is garbage.

Just Lucky u are mad. why would they put her in races she has a strong chance of not winning. Even though $1'000'000 races are easy too win thats why she races in them. If u ever own a horse let us know so i can steer clear.

Surely JustLucky is trolling :P

Either that or he has a VERY limited knowledge of racing

Boring. No knock on Black Caviar, a freak , a champion, a once-in-a-lifetime horse but it is all getting boring (bashing up Zedi Knight ffs). The owners aren't battlers, neither is P.Moody, take her overseas and take them all on for the sake of horse racing / sports lovers everywhere, otherwise it's a yawn-fest imo.

Well said laythemasses. Stop beating around the bush!!!

WTF?? Everyone gets pissed off when So You Think gets taken overseas but now Peter Moody and the Owners have kept this star in our own backyard so we can all appreciate her and everyone is getting BORED!! Thats just disgraceful if watching our greatest sprinter ever makes you bored.

She is going to go overseas eventually obviously but Moody still needs to map a prep to get there!

Take her overseas to show the world we have great horses here as well = money and investment!!!

WTF? What about Miss Andretti, Takeover Target, Scenic Blast, Choisir or even Star Witness last year? Pretty sure Europe already know we have sensational sprinters!

Star Witness not at all our best nor even close!!! Just lucky a few times it won.

Yeah i know, he got thrashed by BC but still finished 2nd and 3rd in the big Ascot sprints!

does anyone know if she holds any track records. as far as i know she jogs in and still runs fast times just wish they would let her go a bit more to break track records i know they dont need to but she could break them and deserves to have her name down as track record holder

I was stoked to see SYT go overseas, as a sports fan it was great, what else could he do here? Keep beating the same / similar horses in the Cox Plate each year? What he has achieved (even though he has been arguably poorly programmed) has been amazing. I was up in the middle of the night to watch him run every time, cheering him on.

Tell me half of Oz won't be up in the middle of the night watching BC run in Dubai or HK or Japan or Euro / UK or wherever.

What if she can get a mile? What if she can cruise like now and sprint at the end of 2000m? What if she lines up against Frankel , Snow Fairy, Danedream, Mustard, SYT, Orfevre and co ? How good would that be ?

If it was a purely economic decision then they don't take her anywhere and keep bashing anyone game to line up against her here for a few more years, sell as much merch as they can and cash in, good on them, we know how hard it is to get a quid out of this industry and nobody can begrudge them. She is a license to print money in Oz.

But from a sports fan's point of view I wanna see her go an take them on all over the joint. Go get 'em grrrl, go get 'em.

All the European trainers say Australia has the best sprinters. Starspanglebanner beat there best sprinters a couple years ago. How does taking her overseas show we have great horses. If other countries don't recognize her brilliance they are ignorant. Same if you do not appreciate foreign horses in frankel. The main race moody is setting her for in ascot is not even worth 500,000k. It's not a wise investment at all. Sure it would be good for racing but as moody has said countless times why can't they come to Australia our prizemoney is alot better and I'm sure either Melbourne or Sydney racing clubs would more than accommodate for trainers willing to come over. Look at how much extra prizemoney they offered rocket man

Its like a prize fighter with a 30 - 0 record here in Australia. Thats great! But as a supreme athlete you should always want to test yourself against the best. If your too good for the locals, challenge yourself, go overseas and take on the world. Why wait for the world to come to you?
Black Caviar is a champion. I agree with LTM, Neil Werret has plenty of coin, dont protect her reputation, enhance it. I think she will dominate over 1400m personally. And she would walk in at Royal Ascot. Time to go!

buzzdnb - last night she ran 1200 1st up from a spell in 1.09.44 the record is 1.09.29 ( Miss Andretti ) -Her fastest Flemington win was 1.07.36 1200 mtrs dead 4, the record is 1.07.16 ( IGLESIA )

They ain't taking their horses to Oz, too expensive, too far , no interest, a backwater. She has to go to them. If the owners of the worlds best sprinters were chasing the biggest prizemoney then they would all be in Japan. If they want prestige then it is all about the UK.

I don't really give a toss about owners anyway, if there was no prizemoney to race for then how many would be in it just for the love, for the sport of seeing if their horse can beat the others ? Not too many.

Where does the prizemoney come from? The punters, the blokes having their hard earned on horse racing every day. The punters are the second most important thing in horseracing, the horses the most important, the rest down the rung.

Sorry....getting off the subject. Don't start me on owners or Gai.

thanks i knew her times were close to records and just hands and heels amazing

BC

nice clip

I have pondered her winning streak some more, justlucky, and I think I have narrowed it down to two (2) areas:

i) her mane has never seen a pair of scissors or shears
ii) her nostrils are both precisely 12cm in circumference

The owners, being Christians, have followed the story of Samson with the mane cutting, or lack of it. Seems to have worked, and such perfectly shaped nostrils enable better breathing.

Interesting article here about winning streaks, Caviar is on 17, I'm going for 5 in a row! lol....Never quit a winning streak (I have a special to take me to 5 straight jump on!) You can read the article at http://thegamblingmind.com/

I am 10 in a row scomed66, going to get 20 in a row before BC ...hehe....for free on my wall.

Back to BC , I am over the winning streak, we get the point, she won't lose one ounce of respect from me if she loses a race trying to go longer distances or going OS. The connections will lose me if she stays in Oz and keeps bashing up Zedi Knight etc in pursuit of 30 in a row or whatever.

Impressive, HOWEVER, your accumulated odds for 10 straight is 41.62, mine is 801.96! Gotcha there lol. On a $100 bet reinvesting every time that's 80,196 vs your 4,162

yeah, you are on fire , I am not thinking about the odds, just wanna see if I can tip 20 in a row for the fun of it, it's harder the you think :)

Yeah, I am being more selective now, seems to be the key. BTW I'm happy to keep taking Zedi for a place at 2.20 against BC! lol.

By the way does anyone know the longest tip winning streak on PP? Horses only, I'm not interested in Tennis or RL tips etc lol.

I was just reading this thread and saw your posts scomed. Well done on your current run. Technically though aren't you only on 4 in a row?

Well technically yeah, but keep it quiet...;-)

....and it is also getting to be a yawn-fest the circus around if BC goes to Dubai or not or if she has two more runs in Oz before going to Dubai then Ascot or if she gets win 20 here then goes straight to Ascot after etc etc blah blah blah ....mostly media fueled but the connections do have to make their minds up sooner then later, it's like Days Of Our Lives the moment and I keep holding back on buying my tickets to Ascot ....just in case they can the whole idea! Make your minds up once and for all after the Orr please.

they said this morning owners are having a meeting friday to decide what they will do

cool. hope they make a final decision on Ascot at least.

Ascot has to be the destination they're going to. If i was an owner i'd be more than happy with what they've made $ wise and now go for glory on UK turf and then promptly retire her.
what a way to finish her career

Right on Zebesty , but maybe a pit stop in Japan on the way back from Ascot (if she is fit and well of course) and then a couple of swan song runs in Oz in early 2013 before a well earned rest. That Sprinters Stakes in Japan in September is worth $2.5M and attracts foreign horses (HK etc ) and with that and Ascot she covers Euro and Asia, either way, make the decision early and call them all on around the globe and let her rip.

ah yes very good LTM, Japan would also be an awesome place to win

There is no way she could have her last race in a different country, that would be terrible.

her last campagne when that time comes should be racing all over australia so the whole country can catch a glimpse...come to perth!

The owners have every right to pick and choose the horse's program however as they have stated on numerous occasions they leave it all up to Moody. Moody is 100% doing the right thing by the horse imo. She was a little fragile early on and sustained a muscle tear. Moody has EVERY right to look after her after that. People have short memories, this time last year she embarked on a campaign that took her on to win 5 consecutive Group 1 races !! Remember The Lightning Stks, Newmarket Hcp with 58kg's, The William Reid Stks, TJ Smith Stks and BTC Cup which were all won in a canter ? The spring is not the best time for sprinters as the best sprint races are in the autumn yet she runs in and wins for the 2nd time the spring's best sprint (again, in a canter) The Patinack Classic and people still want to talk about how she's beating noboby. In her career she has beaten pointlessly "hacks" like Crystal Lily, Hay List, All Silent, Response, Buffering, Hinchinbrook, Beaded, Alverta, Triple Honour, Wanted, Ortensia, Star Witness, Hot Danish etc and people still want to discredit her and her connections ? It is common knowledge they intend to take her to England this year and maybe even a stop or 2 on the way back home. She will win a helluva lot easier in England than she wins in Australia mark my words. Can't wait for the 'naysayers' to then crank on about how it was a poor field, the race was only worth $500,000 etc etc etc. Some people just can't be pleased. I applaud Moody for the job he has done with this freak. His planning and timing with her has been perfect in so many ways and thus she has repaid the faith with a perfect record. She is a once in a lifetime horse for Moody and he is giving her once in a lifetime treatment and that is the reason she is still racing at the top of her game.....

good stuff Melbman, I too don't understand how people can knock her!
Everytime we see her is a treat, and i've had the pleasure of seeing her 4 times and it's something that i will treasure for the rest of my life

Black Caviar beat virtually nothing at MV last week, just look at the form. If you think UK will be easier, you've got another thing coming, the style and overall ability of the horses over there is outstanding. IMO no horses targeting the Golden Jubilee will drop out like they do here, anything can happen in that race. Also, the July Cup has only been won by SSB for Coolmore, proving a very difficult test for Aussie horses. Never the less, she is quite a horse and $2 will quickly be taken and will start about $1.60.

Lol no one thinks the Golden Jubilee will be easier than her MV win last week! The overall ability of UK sprinters is average compared to here. So long as Black Caviar goes there sound, she will humiliate them. There is no doubt in my mind that Hay List is the second best sprinter in the world and Sepoy is either 3rd or 4th with Rocket Man. The UK sprinters will be coming in at long intervals if Black Caviar goes over there

If black cavier opens at evens I'll retire at the ripe old age of 23. Ill sell everything i have and put it on her. (Although i wont be retired for long cause i dont have much to sell).She will absolutely demolish any non Australian sprinter. Her biggest test will be sepoy if the sheik goes that way.

The top 4 sprinters in the world in order are;

1. Black Caviar
2. Hay List
3. Sepoy
4. Rocket Man

Thats my opnion obviously but would anyone disagree?

JJ the jet plane, sacred kingdom prob getting on a bit now

Boring, she eats the UK sprinters and the rest too, what the punters want to see is BC step up to 1600 OR Frankel come down to 1400 to take each other on, come on, forget all the rest , that's what we wanna see ain't it? Frankel V Black Caviar , #1 and #2 in the world, don't frig around , get it on, rumble time. ....one chance only , this year.

I want to see them both try to dominate their respective fields. BC is a sprinter, i dont want her stepping up to a mile just because she is TOO brilliant as a sprinter. Frankel wont be going back in distance this prep either, a mile would be the shortest he would go and step it up to middle distance.

I would rather see SYT take on Frankel

Boring , 1 v 2 , the rumble in the urban jungle, get it on or we all die wondering, 1600m should work and leave Frankel's camp without excuse.

That would prove nothing anyway

Well , we all die wondering then, if they race at Ascot on the same day in different races then the antiquated UK racing without sectional times won't help us work out who is the faster, so they have to eyeball each other, throw in SYT and any others game enough to jump in over 1600m and you got a wet dream for the web team. The connections only have one chance to do this for the people that fund the industry (the punters), hope they don't miss he boat.

Well Black caviar clearly can run faster, but running both over an unsuitable distance wont prove who is superior, it will just prove who handled that distance best. Black Caviar is a sprinter, Frankel is a miler/middle distance

Is she only a sprinter? You know that do you?

Never been tried beyond 1200m. What if she can cruise in her races as she does now and sprint at the end of 1600-1800-2000m . Never know unless they try, rather see her try over 1600 and lose then keep running in sprints. What if she is still just getting warmed up at the end of the Orr next week? We will all be wondering about 1600m etc I reckon.

Frankel's best is 1600-2000 it seems.

Get it on I say , World 1 v 2 with any others game enough to jump in over 1600 or even 1800m , how good would that be? Only going to be one chance for a dream match like this to happen, hope the owners don't blow it

Well lets see - she has had 17 starts from 1000m-1200m and won them all...Sounds like a sprinter to me!!

She hasn't been tried at 2 miles either, i guess we cant say she isn't a stayer until she has tried and failed over that distance either!?

You are losing it mate. Why dont we just get Moody to go all Ross McDonald on her and keep stepping her up in distance until she is stuffed?

You are planning a race over 1600-1800m for her when she has never raced beyond 1200m and sprinting is quite clearly her go. Seriously, you are either being a pathetic troll or deluded

Tine to move on , we all know she can sprint, she goes to the UK and beats their second rate sprinters and it is a yawn fest , boring , lets see her step up to the mile and take the best horse in the world on. Besides Australia not many give a toss about sprinting, it's all about the mile Newc.

...the mile and beyond

Stop talking nonsense. Sprinting is just as big through out the rest of the world.

So your plan is to just to keep stepping her up in distance until she is more and more uncomfortable so that the others have a fighting chance of beating her?

You are quite clearly a massive troll and dont even know why i bother to reply to your gibberish

Lets just see how she travels in the Orr ..... BC is a gold laying chicken..so as long as it keeps giving the golden eggs to the owners that should do them ..maybe after she has conquered all of the sprints in the world - then maybe try her for longer and see what she can do - why risk a flawless record now just to prove to the world she is the best - thats what a smart trainer would do and i think moody is a very smart trainer if I ever knew one......

Newc, no need to get personal mate. These are only opinions, yours is different to mine, that's all, I am not laughing at your backhand or serve and volley game.

Give her a crack at Frankel over 1600m, that is all I am saying, take her out of the cotton wool and have a crack at the world champ while in the UK. I am not saying have a crack at the Melbourne Cup or anything too outrageous.

They are trying her over 1400m next start, if it all goes well then why not look at taking the best on in the world at 1600m? Then, if she got 1600m, well, where to next....

Way more interesting then beating up pommy sprinters, many of whom Zedi Knight would handle.

Who the hell is Newc??

Im not getting personal either, im having a go at the comment. She has not even taken on the rest of the world over the sprints yet so to suggest taking on Frankel over a mile is laughable. Why doesnt he step back to 1000m just to take her on? Its just as stupid. There is a HUGE difference between her beating horses here over the mile than taking on the worlds best milers.

Im sorry if you find it boring that she is such a legend of the turf that she can just go to the UK and trounce them. If that is boring for you then i feel bad for you because you are really missing out.

Why the hell would she step out of her brilliant distance range just to take on Frankel over his pet trip so she can get beaten by him and have all the gloss washed off her amazing career? Its ludicrous.

Colonel John Newcombe. Now that has a nice ring to it. Sounds 'ace'.

John Newcombe is your profile pic I thought but looking close is it John Cleese? Sorry for the confusion.

Maybe I am the only one that thinks this way about her, maybe I am nuts.

Anyone else got an opinion ? Loosely defined as......

a) Black Caviar should be restricted to traditional sprint distances, lets say 1000 stretched out to 1400 occasionally for the rest of her career and to race overseas and in Australia at these distances only.

or

b) Black Caviar to try and step up in distance to say 1600m (possibly beyond) and look for a clash with Frankel in the UK before a swansong year back in Oz.

or

c) Other

I for one dont want to see this happen to Black Caviar. She is a sprinter and should remain as such. She may test the waters over the mile in weaker races here but when you have a streak going like hers you dont just throw her in the deep end against the best miler/middle distance horse in the world just for the spectacle of them racing against each other

Also i wish David Raphael would call some more races

For me real equine greatness is defined by winning over a range of distances, Kingston Town 1200-3200, Makybe Diva 1400-3200 etc etc. Black Caviar will go down as one of the best , if not the best sprinters ever no matter what happens from here on but the sports lover in me want to see her have a crack at 1600m in the UK against the best, won't diminish her reputation as a sprinter if she loses, if she wins she goes to equine immortality level.

Lol who did Makybe Diva beat over 1400m?? Lots of long distance horses pick up wins over the shorter trips because they are usually racing against other stayers on a similar prep.

In my mind she doesnt gain anything more winning over a mile over there as she does winning over 1200m. Winning over a range of distances means little to nothing for me

Who is Black Caviar beating over sprint distances? Zedi Knight ....snore....

Quoting Champions of the Turf:

"We all know what a super Mare Makybe Diva is but on the 27th August 2005 she yet again stunned the racing fans of Australia by an amazing first up win over 1400m in the Memsie Stakes held at Caulfield racecourse in Victoria.

The dual Melbourne Cup winner was sent out at 7/1 fourth favourite against a field of some of Australia's greatest sprinters with the likes of Regal Roller - Super Elegant - Renewable - Roman Arch - Barely A Moment & the old war horse Le Zagaletta while the critics and tipsters had Regal Roller & Super Elegant a mile on top of their selections saying that it would be an almost impossible task for Makybe Diva to win first up over 1400m against these types of powerhouse sprinters"

No stars in that Memsie field.

Im sure im not the only one who gets sick of that argument about Black Caviar. She has beaten MANY world class stars through her sprinting career. So what if she only beat Zedi Knight and Doutful Jack recently? You cant race against the cream of the crop every start

horses some times are built in a way that enables them to excel over a particular distance . the champion sprinter is a great example, if you look at Manikato , Black Caviar, Silent Witness ,their shoulders have almost as much power as their rears , their over all length is shorter than staying types, that resulting in a powerball effect,
Black Caviar's as too Manikato's best distance is 1000- 1400m ,that's not to say they cannot run further, but i believe and Manikato showed that the further he went the slower he became .Manikato won over a mile at G1 and run a gutsy 4th in an Australian Cup ,when he was way out of his comfit zone. Black Caviar would win over a mile, but does she have to? , not in my book. she is what she is .and that is possibly the best 1000-1400m the racing world has seen
p.s if you get a chance go to the Livingledgends in victoria and have a look a Silent Witness and see the barrel that he is.

when you look back on careers though, you still remember silent witness as one of the great sprinters of that time, maykbe diva failed overseas but nobody talks about that, she won 3 cups in a row, you always remember the great feats they achieve over the failures. Northerly was a champion, but came back to racing after injury and was not the same, sunline lost her last 3 races but do we really remember looking back, lonhro getting beat last stat by grand armee......eventually every horse will have a loss, and boy hope im wrong with BC but cant we all just enjoy the ride no matter what they do with her, it all speculation until then.

Colonel Newcombe. With the mic lead. In the commentary box .

SURROUND, you smacked the nail on the head. Saved me from typin it ;)

It's obvisiously speculation till she races over any distance over 1200 but I think she can get more comfortably. I don't think that race you referred to colonel relates to black cavier. She gets her rivals off the bit a long way out because she can run fast sectionals while seemingly traveling within herself. Moody has said a couple times that he thinks her best distance will be 1600m. That's a pretty massive call given her ability of 1000-1200m. IMO I think she will get to 1600 because she not a dip and tear sprinter. Even if she does fail over 1600 as a couple of people said she will not be disgraced in any way so why not step her up. Wouldn't put her up against frankel in her first test at that distance but I don't think it's totally out if the question. Like I said it's all speculation but she could be any absolute freak like Kingston town

*rip

LAYTHEMASSES this is what your looking for IGUGU even bred here. Irish mummy and daddy.

Black Caviar will still win over 1400m....she has the ability

Thanks Tip2008!

IGUGU
(Galileo (IRE) - Zarinia (IRE)) the SA 4YO Mare. 12 starts, 10 wins (8 at Group level, 4 G1s) from 1200 to 2450.....wow! She going to Ascot ? Get her in that race with Frankel, SYT, Danedream and Black Caviar ! ...hehe

She may follow Empress Club to the States? Hopefully not the same result though. Maybe mid-east, trainer runs horses there. Would be good though?

Surround12 - At three, Manikato ran 2nd in the Australian Cup by half a head to Dulcify no less. Won the Futurity as a 3YO, then over 1800m, by 5 lengths. It was only the chronic leg problems that prevented him from being trained as a middle distance horse in later years. Would love to have seen a fit Manikato at 4 or 5 in a Cox Plate - the King would have needed a search lamp to find him.

I highly doubt he would of beaten Kingston town

every thing gets beat -)

What if , what if , what if.....here we are wondering if Manikato was sound would he have beaten The King in one of his 3 Cox Plates, we will never know but it is fun speculating,

Be the same result ( never knowing only speculation) in 20 years time if they don't give Black Caviar a crack at Frankel etc over 1600m in the UK, the owners of BC and Frankel owe it to us , the punters, the guys that fund this industry to have a crack at each other don't they?

amigo are you dreaming? kingston town was a freak in fact he was odds on at his first start and ran last!! the great tommy smith snipped his balls , and rest of his career is not only history, but immortal! and his wins spanned from 1200 to 3200 metres, manikato was a brilliant sprinter that bagged group1s just about every year he stepped out! but would be no match for the king over a cox plate distance! black cavier will remain under defeated in australia over 1000 to 1400 as she is freak! i would love to see her step up to a mile. but that will never happen, she will now go overseas, and the rest will become history cannot see her getting beaten over 1200 anywhere in the world!

yes i should of refreshed my memory before writing , it was the Rosehill Guineas that he ran 4th in , and both times he was beaten over 2000m was by Dulcify , who went on to smash them in the Cox plate in the spring of 79. moonee valley was a track that he liked, but he wouldn't have beaten Dulcify and by 5yo his legs wouldn't let him beat Kingston Town.
i still stand by my comment that the further he went past 1400m the slower he became,and it's for that reason any thing he done above 1400m i hold with such high regard, to me he was out of his comfit zone and mixed with some legends of the day, but he was the Champion
back then the owner and trainers were not as precious with their good horse , they took on good horse in good races some times out of their comfit zones they raced in Hcp's with huge weight ,horses wern't kept in cotton wool for their stud value.
Black Caviar would win over a mile and mix it with the best over 2000 m the way Manikato did, but the further she would go over 1400m the slow she will go, will they risk it ?? i doubt it , but wouldn't it be great to see her challenged and to have to dig deep and show the metal of a true champion
and for that reason at the moment i'd put her more in the freak category than the champion one.

Whats the category difference between freak and champion? :P

Seriously if people dont rate her a champion already they are blind to what remarkable history we are in the middle of right now!

a champ bites off more than they can chew and still come up trumps
a freak eats small fish and wins hard held in near record time
i'm ,like everybody else ,in awe of this horses ability. but they my thoughts

I don't think any of us a are potting Black Caviar, she is a champion sprinter but I am with surround12 in wanting to see her tried out of the current comfort zone.

Next week will tell us allot, what if she is cruising at the end of 1400m and running time same as she does at 1200m? We will all be back here wondering if she can get the mile as strong won't we? I know it is a big step up from 1400 to 1600 in what it takes out of a horse (even though it is only 200m more) but "if" she can get 1600m or more (?) it opens up a whole new world.

She is a she and all her kids will be watched keenly ( same as Makybe's) but the stud side of things is limited so why not give her a crack at further? If she don't get 1600m then It won't diminish the value of her siblings, it won't, imo, diminish her status as a champion sprinter.

Would honestly rather see her try and lose at 1600 or 1800(?) and take on the best UK/Euro has then be confined to a max of 1400m in Australia and a guest appearance sprint or two overseas.

Cant say i agree with that.

You wouldnt call Makybe Diva a champion then would you? Went to Japan (?) and took on their best and failed.

I also wouldnt say Black Caviar has beaten "small fish"

100% percent correct surround12 you hit it on the nail, bc has a freakish cruising speed(for those who dont understand a huge heart and lungs and rolls motor!) and good-luck to the owners for the ride of their lifetime! and in a short space can put 2 or 3 lengths on opposition without little effort that leaves the rest off the bit chasing!pussy!! i think we all saw that, when haylist was certain to win, and this bony freak mare flew!! and won after giving haylist 4 lengths on the turn!,.

why wouldn't i call her a champ ???
2 weight carrying records in the cup
won 4 years in a row in the cup carnival
won from 1600-3200 wfa/ hcp at G1 level

yer she failed in japan ,but they had a crack
she bit of more than she could chew many times and overall came up trumps

How could anyone not rate her a champion though??

17/17 so far - taking on and demolishing our best sprinters in a way that hasn't been seen for decades. Would you rate Vain a champion?

Vain probably raced more out of his comfort zone than he raced in it.
renowned as a sprinter he won the Caufield Guineas over a mile
won 3 times in 8 days over the cup carnival ,winning the G1 mile with 4.5kg over wfa
he was a champion "colt" but was retired before he could become a champion horse

Black Caviar is a champion without any doubt

BC won with a weight carrying record in the Newmarket.

The Diva beat the best over the 2000m - 2 miles here but when she went out of the comfort zone of Australia she failed dismally. So when she "bit off more than she can chew" she showed nothing and lost

* Winning 4 years in a row during the cup carnival isn't a big feat

name another horse that won four years in a row at the carnival 1xG2 &3x G1
carrying weight records twice in our no1 event
and you want to judge her on two failures in japan??
go and watch her win her cox plate
i will not be judging Black Caviar on what she does or doesn't do overseas; she may fail because she doesn't travel or if she wins what real credibility does get here when we all think their sprinters are second rate, to me she on a hiding to nothing
sorry Colonel were not going to see eye to eye on this ,have a good day

Her 3 Melbourne Cups are what matters, like anyone cares about her G2 win the year before, that stat means nothing in the scheme of things.

I rate Makybe Diva a champion. Im just using her as an argument to why you dont rate BC a champion.

All im basically seeing is you dont rate BC a champion because of the distances she has raced over, which i couldnt agree less with

ok

surround12 the colonel is wright in saying makybe diva , is a champion! over 3200 any horse that wins 3 straight melbourne cups with a different weight each year , and actually its third was won with a record weight! will never in my lifetime or yours be repeated again ! and only champions can do that!

interesting forum here.......Makybe Diva was 'thrown' in at the weights to win 3 Melbourne Cups....you can talk about 'weight carrying records' all you like. They are ONLY weight carrying records for a mare !! Trawl through the history books and you will realize Makybe Diva was thrown in....What weight would have a Better Loosen Up, Might and Power, Northerly been asked to carry when aiming at a 3rd straight Melbourne Cup ? 65 - 68kg's ?? Check what weights Tulloch, Phar Lap, Tobin Bronze, Rising Fast were asked to carry. In saying that she was no doubt a champion racemare. Forget her Japanese runs. It's widely acknowledged she didn't travel too well plus the tracks were like roads. I don't subscribe to the theory ' we'll never see another horse win 3 Melbourne Cups'. We probably won't because 99.9% of horses who win 1 are weighted out of winning another, unlike the the mighty mare. I agree with you surround12 with respect to Vain. He was undoubtedly a superstar sprinter before being whisked off the breeding barn. He is still the yardstick in regards to sprinters, with Manikato and to a lesser extent Todman, however I must say Black Caviar will take the title by the end of 2012. She makes good horses look like maidens. She has beaten all and sundry pointlessly and before anybody wants to discredit that check the facts 1st. She has beaten around 10 individual Group 1 winners in doing so. She will win overseas more easily than she is winning here, mark my words. I ask you this - Is she better than Falvelon, Scenic Blast, Miss Andretti, Choisir, Takeover Target, Starspangledbanner etc ? They all brained em OS. In my opinion I say 100% YES, she is far superior to that lot. We are lucky enough to be witnessing a freak....sit back and enjoy !

so you agree that at the moment she's in the 'freak' class ,with the potential to reach champion class?

Absolutely smashed it Belgian. Galilee was asked to carry 67 or 68 to win the Melbourne cup a second time while makybe diva carried 57.5 to win her third. IMO there both champions. Surround what qualifies BC for champion status

Do you call your sporting heroes freaks..freaks are found in a circus..champions are gifted and trainers bring out the best in them.there always be champion in any sport ..in the past and in the future we enjoy the thrill and the excitement they bring us and so we should all appreciate that....as for B>C I do believe with the sit and sprint this horse will easily get 1600m her strength is her greatest asset and will be o/s.

makybe diva got favours with her light weights & the watering of the track. Champions overcome obsticles, like lonhro in the 2004 Australian cup (incidentally makybe diva finished unplaced in that race) or what about Kingston town in his third cox plate, now that was a champion overcoming adversity to win.

personally I wish so you think had stayed with Bart because then we all could be discussing a classic horse rather than just a sprinter. Hey I'm a fan of black caviar but until she races in a Doncaster or an Australian cup, it's hard to get "too" excited by her.

mlbman I like your posts, I agree with most of your thoughts but how can you be so confident of black caviar handling the international traveling ?

Lol belgian was supposed to say melbman

Why on earth would she run in an Australian cup and what would it prove. If it's the 2000m that would prove herself than why not a cox plate? She's a sprinter why does she have to prove herself over a mile. Is usain bolt not a champion till he win over 800m?
Just a sprinter! How cannot you not enjoy a champion, freak whatever you want to call her in action. Ill give you her last campaign and this one is a walk in the park. But if watching her in the lightning and Newmarket doesn't get you excited racing is not for you.
SYT is a very good horse but he came up against the good middle distances horses in Australia, no real stars and while he's had excuses for his overseas campaign I don't think he would of have enjoyed the success he had in Australia. I know that's a big call given he would have been long odds on to win a 3rd cox plate if he was fit and healthy.
The only thing I agree with is I think she can get 1600m in the Doncaster. And while the Doncaster is a strong 1600 I think she will get it because as surround says she is a freak. But in saying that she has nothing more to prove by racing over 1600m.

Black Caviar is about to equal Ajax's run of 18wins so lets have a small look at some of his wins in that spree
he won the 1200m Newmarket, All Age stk, Underwood stk, Caufield stk, ,Memsie stk, Melbourne stk, the Futurity stk with 66kg ,st George stk, LSK Mckinnon stk, the Cox Plate and the C.B Fisher plate over 2400m
besides the Newmarket and the 18 wins in a row they haven't got much in common, but she'll be compared to Ajax, which really is not fair to him

Your taking that out of context but aren't you. There not comparing ability just records. Whose to say who's better. People always compare sportpeople or athletes from different generations. You can't do it. Whose to say the calibre of horses ajax raced against is the same for BC. Someone said before she has beaten 10 group one horses basically hard held!

Good point about Ajax Surround12 ( seem to be agreeing with you allot:)), the comparisons will come from the same naive media who dared to mention BC in the same paragraph as Bernborough when she won her 15th. What were they thinking. Like comparing apples with coal.

If, being the right word, we ever see a sprinter like black cavier again you will be saying yes he/she has ability but they have a long way to go to better her .

Lol why do people constantly over rate the history of older horses and under rate current horses??

Black Caviar well and truly deserves to be mentioned with the likes of Ajax, Bernborough etc... Its not just the number of wins next to her name but the way she does it. Distances mean nothing. A sprinter should and is held in the same high regard as a horse who wins over 2000m, that argument is actually quite funny to read. The person who said they cant get "too" excited until she wins an Aus Cup/Doncaster...LOL :D

Makybe should not be used as an example friends. And i think her best win was that Cox Plate even over the 3 Cups. BC does deserve the label of Champion, and that will be more pronounced after she retires & we all reflect on her wonderful career, and thank the heavens we witnessed the two greatest mares ever in our lifetime. ** cue the violin as a tear rolls den the cheek.

Add a comment...

Add a comment...

Add a comment...

;)

That's right colonel, I don't get excited by non-flagship races. Oh sure you might, sure you might even get excited by the afl per-season winners or whatever else is hyped on some particular weekend but I can't. I will instead wait for the flagship races before I start shouting "champion champion"...hey man the reality is that nobody outside of the racing industry really cares about a sprint race called the Newmarket stakes. The real important raves, the classics, are races like the Doncaster or the cox plate - those such races are the pinnacle of Australian racing in the eyes of the general Australian public. Hey I bet you cannot even recite the past ten winners of the Newmarket from memory !

Also ok people regard the acheivememts of old horses highly because those achievements have stood the test of time. Hype is your thing man, knowledge is surrounds thing.

& finally usain bolt is a champion sprinter but...Michael Johnson is a champion sprinter & a champion athlete. There's a subtle yet important difference between the two but oh I don't expect you to notice it

Carry on...champion :P

Wow! Surely you are not that dumb - sorry for getting personal but that is just so retarded.

I actually dont know why im bothering to reply to what is pure nonsense - but good trolling because you have lured me in ;)

The Newmarket is a bigger race than the Aus Cup! No one outside the racing industry gives a cr*p about the Doncaster, Aus Cup or Newmarket. People who dont follow racing care about the Melbourne Cup and maybe the Caulfield Cup/Cox Plate - but thats irrelevant anyway what non racing fans think anyway so i dont know why you brought it up!

From memory winners of the last 10 Newmarkets; Black Caviar, Wanted, Miss Andretti, Weekend Hussler, Scenic Blast, Takeover Target, Alinghi, Toledo, Belle Du Jour. They are some of the winners from this millenium. Not a bad group eh?

Now lets name the last 10 Doncaster winners; Rangirandoo, Sacred Choice, Vision and Power, Haradasun, Racing to win, Patezza, Private Steer...you are just lucky you can throw in Sunline and Grand Armee to make it look respectable. If you think that is a better group of horses than the Newmarket winners then that is just sad.

Now how can achievements stand the test of time? Once they have happened they cannot change - the results are what they are. The only thing that can happen is over time is a sense of nostalgia kicks in and people start to over rate the winners of the past. You wait until 10-20 years have passed and Black Caviar's reputation will have increased.

There is no hype around anyone's opinion of Black Caviar - LOL - She has already proven herself with results!

It's ok man...you reply to me because you know how to type. I reply to you, in turn because I'm bored with this bundesliga match & because I pity you.

I don't need to argue which race is more substantial - Doncaster or Newmarket. I think the general public answers that question definitively & if you have friends outside of the racing industry then ask them what the Doncaster handicap is & ask them what the Newmarket handicap is. The reality is nobody really cares about the Newmarket handicap just as nobody really cares about the jubilee stakes.

The fact that you think there is no hype around people's opinion of black caviar is exactly why I pity you.

Oh lord...you pity me? Wow i really have reached rock bottom :(

I cant argue your points because what you are saying is wrong. To say no one cares about the Golden (Diamond) Jubilee shows what little you know. Ask anyone not in the racing game and they will say the same about the Newmarket as they will about the Doncaster.

Sprinters are bigger than milers throughout the world just so you know ;)

great work and research colonel! even i myself would have to look up the past 10 newmarket and doncastor winners! all super horses of their era! who can forget when might n power, broke their hearts in the cox and melbourne cup? and pumper at his best! mind you he still has it and riding like rookie! sunline, what a bony mare she was grand armee how many group 1s did that win 6,7 ? for those who dont understand racing champions thoroughbreds are those you mentioned and will forever live in our lives. carnival times is when the very horses step out, and group1s and weight for age races around thats where you get the cream rise to the top! bc will one day have immortal status. along with the rest you have mentioned!

melbman congratulations! you win the weekly award for punters paradise best thread ! posted 6.52pm yesterday! could not agree more well done your research was excellant . the reason i said we will never ever see another makybe diva, win three in a row in our life time is purely on the gut feeling, that no longer will the average joe blow of australian training ranks be able to qualify horses for the melbourne cup. unless they are good enough to win lead up races eg the geelong cup . the greedy melboune raceing club not only wants to stop our great nation for the day> but now wants to stop the world! and as seen last year the first 7 past the post in the cup were overseas raiders. (this has now surely opened up the flood gates and this year we will see horses from japan america and hong kong and africa . the melb cup should be renamed the melbourne world cup! and thats why we will never see another feat that makybe gave us!

steady fellas, we all have an opinion and in title to them. We all think she's special, but our thinking of the use of the title champion are slightly different, my opinion is open to change and i would like to see it done.

With the right preparation BC could win any race at any distance she gets put into. I mean stayers have to have good sprinting ability to start with don't they?
Look at Mosheen for example, came second in the Golden Slipper then goes on to win the Oaks over 2500m, then yesterday she wins over 1200m first up and will probably go on to more middle distance races over the Autumn. Same with Southern Speed.
BC is cursed by her perfect record which is making her owners too scared to step her out over further for fear of failure. I think the best thing for her would be to stay in Australia and go for all of our biggest races and not worry if she loses one or two in the lead up. I think she already is a champ, but how awesome would it be if she won a Doncaster, the Cox Plate, the Stradbroke the list could on forever.
Sending her overseas and taking her out of her comfort zone could be her demise.

Just because it is an opinion doesnt make it right though lol, if you dont want to call her a champion surround - even though i dont agree at all with you - then thats up to you, but for street_legal to talk all that nonsense about sprint racing being inferior to mile races and no one caring about the Newmarket and Golden Jubilee is just garbage

Don't know if it's that easy levitate. All horses are different, you can just train them to get more distance. Manawanui is another than can race over short to middle distance. Weekend hustler failed over a longer distance. Typhoon Tracy and more joyous were trained to get longer but failed. In the end waterhouse and moody ended up training that explosive turn of foot out of the horses and they were never the same again.
While I think she"ll get 1600m, 2000m is a different kettle of fish, especially for a sprinter

I'm surprised that punters on this site would bother getting involved in pointless threads such as this one. I can categorically state that my racing mates and I have never had a conversation/debate about BC. Yesterday we gathered at the pub and discussed horses/topics such as bel sprinter, would you give a horse to Jason Warren?, is almas fury better than we think?, emmalene, rangirangdoo set to resume, why the hell has americain gone to Hayes?, Snowden has another decent crop of 2 year olds, is Nikki Burke hotter than Sally Burke? etc etc. If for some reason some blonk said BC is a champion, I'd say yeah probably... Hey remember that day miss Andretti stalked gold edition up the flemington straight and pounced and won? What a day at the track that was? How good was andretti? Yeah she was a champion, what race was that? No idea, but I remember we ended up at the gin palace drinking martinis with the winnings. BC who? Can't get enthused about a horse I've never backed I'm afraid. And why is street legal a retard? I thought he made a decent point. And if the colonel recited all those winners from memory, he clearly doesn't drink enough grog.

Well said.

Sally easily

Agbonlahor, there were no decent points made by Street Legal. I can accept difference of opinion with Surround but SL is just saying stuff that is not at all true.

I dont touch the grog either, awful stuff

Maybe they should just retire her after 20 straight, then sell her foals for $2 mil a pop. As Terry Kennedy said the other day on radio "It'd be like owning an ATM machine".

Nikki Burke for me.

I can't consider Black Caviar a champion until she wins the Grand National and the 1500m Freestyle at the London Olympics. I'm sorry, but until she gets out over distance in the pool she'll just be a good water walker to me.

haha.. Georgie Freeman special.

very funny Agbonlahor.....Sally is a stunner and Nikki appears to have done a few more miles but she's great as well and always has a smile on her face so a big tick there. Happy to spend the night with either lol. With respect to the Doncaster/Newmarket debate I would say they are BOTH in the top 10 races on the Australian calendar. The Doncaster has a little more prestige as it's the best race in Sydney (yes better than The Golden Slipper imo). This would be the only reason The Newmarket loses a little lustre. It's competing with the likes of Melb/Caulf/Aust Cups, Cox Plate etc. Both races are 130+ years old so they certainly have the history that ensures they both remain legitimate "major races". You won't see Black Caviar run in a Doncaster as she would be weighted out of it. Her last run in a handicap she got 58kg's (2011 Newmarket Hcp). She has won another 6 or 7 since and her rating improved off that Newmarket win to see her be the highest rated horse on the planet so what would she get in a Doncaster ? You'd have to say around 62 - 63kg's ? In reply to your question street_legal I can only assume she will travel ok. If she does then the Golden Jubilee Stks will be a walk in the park for her. If she doesn't travel well she'll almost certainly be scratched and maybe aimed at July Cup ? Agbonlahor I would suggest Americain has gone to Hayes as he is Australian owned and the owners intend to stand him at stud here next season. Joining the dots I would say he's gonna stand at Hayes' property at Euroa, hence the reason he is training him. Did they call it Lindsay Park ?

infidel, just to make it round the track without receiving "the curtain" would make her a champion... watched the GN from the top of my camper van once, what a nightmare!

how can they compare Black Caviar to Pharlap. what a joke . the horse is over rated..

No one is comparing her to Phar Lap

The only thing they all have in common is they all get beat

Not necessarily

Here's the noms......

Race 6 Sportingbet C.F. Orr Stakes(GROUP 1) 1400m $400,000

BLACK CAVIAR
SOUTHERN SPEED (BLKS)
PLAYING GOD
MIDAS TOUCH
PRECEDENCE
CHASM (BLKS)
DANZYLUM (BLKS)
DOUBTFUL JACK
RANGER
LARGO LAD (BLKS)
ILLO
ADAMANTIUM
EFFICIENT

................interesting if they all accept.

Black Caviar by 4l from Southern Speed

a few in there with the potenial to end Black Caviars streak, could be alot of value to be had in this race, my money is on Southern Speed

wtf? Lol this is going to be another space job. They are mostly stayers coming back, she will demolish them.

Absolutely. Could be 5L +

If that is the possible line up BC by 6 to any order, Southern Speed - Doubtful Jack - Ranger

From what I heard morrow72 on 927 or RSN (which they call themselves these days) is that Ranger was only nominated in case BC fell over in one way or another and wasn't going to run.

I'm expecting Southern Speed to be a little flat 2nd up over 1400m but she'll still be finishing it off when it's all over. Wouldn't surprise me if Playing God ran into 2nd some lengths behind BC. There's nothing else in this with the ability to get close over 1400m.

Would have had Sth Speed as the main danger to BC apart from 2nd up record in 2nd prep with 11/14 at Caulfied over that distance.

Black Caviar has never been extended in her races so far. Looks like she has another gear.

Regardless - I'll be at Caulfield to see this Champion run on Saturday. Getting goosebumps just thinking about it.

southern speed will be looking for further, the remainder of the 'group' horses will be getting warm when shes 200m past the post...if the field remains like that danzylum will lead her into the straight and looks a sneaky exacta

Chasm is one for the multiples behind her. First 4 , BC. And box up Chasm,Danzylum,Ranger,SS. And hit it for multiple units.

hope efficient runs, then we can say BC beat the melb cup winner, not quiet same as winning melb cup, but hey it will do. Ill be there with bells on cheering her home, my 4yr old son cant wait to see "the fastest horse in the world" as we call her :)

Doubt on Ranger running. Gee you mob in Melb get the treats. I'd love to see BC in the flesh.

will be seeing her win for the 4th time this saturday! so pumped, well done for Caulfield for throwing the gates open

Interestingly 6 of the last 8 winners of the Orr have been first up.

Typhoon Tracy 2010
Maldivian 2009
Shinzig 2008
Perfect Promise 2006
Elvstroem 2005
Lonhro 2004

Were all first up.

El Sugundo 2007 and Typhoon Tracy 2011 were not first up.

Don't believe BC will be beaten in Australia this prep. It's never been about how far, only ever been about winning the race. She will go down in history as the best sprinter Australia has ever seen. She may get beaten when taken out of her routine, comfort zone and time zones on her way to Royal Ascot. Until that happens all I can say is "GO YOU GOOD THING". Australia loves a champion.

Black Caviar #1 .Day light 2nd

Black Caviar 1st....Southern Speed 2nd...

Wish the cav would get beat... But wish even more she would race something good

Really....You don't think Black Caviar has raced against anything good? I think some people must have been the kid who was always disappointed after birthdays and Xmas days, is that all I got!. Hay List is an excellent horse, a monster sprinter and a horse that really tries. Black Caviar made it look easy. Just outside the track record set by Miss Andretti, and she was an incredible flying machine. Won in 3 states, never been challenged except by Hay List.
I remember the fist time I saw BC win, and the ease it did it in. I think Todd or someone else from Moody's yard rode it and the horse did everything. I remember seeing it knuckle at the start and still win easily, with a torn muscle. This is a beautiful horse and we are lucky to have seen a horse of this quality. The reason it has beaten every horse so far is not the lack of competition but the depth of BC. Moody has done a fantastic job of keeping this horse on track, placing it to perfection and protecting it from the injury woes that beset so many good horses. I love all the banter about this horse but lets face it if something were to beat it, I can't imagine the victor doing it on it's own merits. BC is the best sprinter I have seen and after all the chat, history will show that a very long picket fence was built by this horse, all with no thumbs.

Oh dear aus1...

When people make uneducated statements it just makes me sad :(

A few of you BC hater's better get yourself onto the Racing Board, because unlike your opinion BC will be voted into the Hall Of Fame in the not too distant future and from my memory they don't put any ole nag in there. Please back against her on Saturday i really would like $1.40......

judging by the "hate"i'm expecting a price on betfair for her this weekend. Bring it on and don't forget to put plenty up
:)

I'll take on BC with Southern Speed first up to knock her over i want 50 the field at least though!!! pay load counts bagmen!

how about you put $1.20 up about BC and you can have the whole field to beat her. By the way SS isn't first up either lmao

$1.95 for a winning margin OVER 3.5L. Is a dead set moral, she will beat these by half the straight, untouched.

thecat ,imo i would be careful going too hard on that bet!! defnantly reckon class will get her home however imo very good chance that the lactic acids building up with 100 to go and they will ease her right out of it!!

Yeh I can see where your coming from Jimmy, but I just can't see it being an issue. She is a freak, and I really don't think she even needs to be shaken up to win by that margin, her cruising speed is phenomenal and she travels so well throughout. I think she will be able to get 1400m+ with ease. I still believe her best distance will be the mile

hope your right cat(1600)!! goodluck !!!

I backed the field over her at stupid odds. After looking at the rest I think it will be a roughie day and here are my selections for the day
O/0865166/0000975/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R1 %u2013 3. Mayneda Strategy @ 21.00/4.60 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000974/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R2 %u2013 8. Greenwich @ 9.00/2.60 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000973/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R3 %u2013 1. Diamond Earth @ 19.00/5.50 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000972/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R4 %u2013 10. Manighar @ 19.00/5.50 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000971/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R5 %u2013 3. Proliferate @ 15.00/4.40 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000970/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R7 %u2013 5. Zedi Knight @ 13.00/3.40 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000969/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R8 %u2013 4. Secret Liaison @ 26.00/7.00 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000968/D 09/02/2012
02:37 Caulfield R9 %u2013 5. I'm Discreet @ 10.00/3.10 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000967/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 1. Efficient @ 101.00/4.60 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000966/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 2. Playing God @ 81.00/3.70 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000965/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 3. Midas Touch @ 81.00/3.70 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000964/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 4. Precedence @ 101.00/4.60 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000963/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 5. Danzylum @ 81.00/3.60 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000962/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 6. Doubtful Jack @ 81.00/3.80 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000961/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 7. Illo @ 121.00/5.50 %u2013 Each Way
O/0865166/0000960/D 09/02/2012
02:29 Caulfield R6 %u2013 9. Southern Speed @ 17.00 %u2013 Win

All except race 6 is 50 EW and Race 6 is 10 Each way and 100 on southern speed, first up will be strong, I think BC will have her due loss

er meant second up Der

Geez those place odds are shocking mate ! 120 to 1 win and only 5 to 1 the place ...I must be reading it wrong should be at least 20s the place ?

Na mate, they all expect BC to win it but it is pretty open with the rest to place

Yep b.c first ... Leaves 2 places if there isn't any scrs wat odds there's 2 scrs so no third div !! Midas touch might go alright first up for a place ! Danzylum and doubtful jack sit one , two with b.c 1 off in 3rd ..she breaks the leaders hearts they drop off , southern speed hard run first up with big weight might be a bit flat 2nd up , leaves Midas touch to run on and into a drum @ $4.20 ..that's not bad actually !!

I'm assuming kingnato is currently recovering from a lobotomy?

cuckoo's nest cuckoo's nest

not much of what he posted makes sense to be honest, especially the "I think BC will have her due loss" and then going and taking unders on every horse in the race to run a place

to state the obvious....
1. Black Caviar
2. Southern Speed
3. Playing God, Midas Touch, Danzylum
4. Playing God, Midas Touch, Danzylum, Doubtful Jack

$9 full unit quartet....not sure what your profit margin would be tho lol.

im tempted to have a cheapy and have danzylum on its to run third....$3 full unit.

i would be tempted to put Danzylum in for second in case it gets a soft lead and BC doesn't take it till half way down the straight because of conservative tactics by Nolan. I have a suspicion SS will race flat second up

Well I can tell you S>S is fully fit,eating well ,and looks better than its last start win ...as a four year old has come back stronger.. will be the stayer to be watched in the future ..as for this race it will be very close on the line and B.C will have to be at full bore over the last 200m and I have seen champions come unstuck in this ..not saying she will get beat but it will be a lot closer than most predict.

I really disagree i doubt Southern Speed will get withing 3ls, The horse just cant physically run as fast as BC can, only injury can stop her

Also disagree. Think it will be be pretty similar to recent starts. She will sit up on the speed, punch out pretty fast sectionals, amble up to the leaders around the turn, put a couple lengths on them with her turn off foot and then be eased down towards the line. Be very surprised if that didn't happen. You be happy to see southern speed hitting the line even if it doesn't run second.

Obviously Black Caviar's record of 6 GROUP 1 wins, 4 Group 2 wins and 7 Listed race wins< plus her only 2 barrier trial wins> mean nothing to some people. She will canter with the rest of the players and leave them in her wake when she shifts into 2nd gear

Black Caviar will win the Orr Stake by 4 lengths against Southern Speed and Doubtfuljack..

going 2 take the special on offer with southern speed 2 win minus BC IN THE RACE

Come on boys i'm not seeing the $1.40 on BF.....

Maybe Aus1 and Saqfly aren't putting up their cash for us :(

I've already put up 1.20 on betfair, just hoping someone like aus1 lays her at odds. how are my chances?

i'm thinking the haters are full of crap and hot air. I'v put mine up at $1.15

Looked a bit like vo rouge up the straight except that VR would have done it all the way

say no more really, she wont get beat in australia EVER
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/sectionals-show-why-black-caviar-is-not-your-average-race-horse/story-fn67tt9b-1226268021541

The BC haters seem to have disappeared, the gutless *****.

Pretty Obvious BC would win against this poor field (not looking for an argument). Nearly every horse in this race was a stater looking to strip fitter for their campaign, wait till the Golden Jubilee and July Cup where she could easily get boxed or simply be outclassed.

So Ican count you in about betting me a price can I Driff?? I'll be sure to wall you come the day looking for a point or two better from you on Betfair, unless you will disappear like the rest of the loud mouths seem too?

I'm interested to know what races "the haters" would like BC to run in, if she is dodging horses or races?? The pie will still be sweet for you come July.

i don't understand "the haters" of BC. why can't they just realize that she is an absolute superstar?

If she wins at ascot and Newmarket, I will say she is a superstar. Two things I don't get is the fact that Moody was found guilty of drugging a horse yet nothing happened, and the HDA barrier movement, the VRC are obviously trying to keep a good rap on the horse but we all know moody is the biggest con in racing. Btw the worlds best horse Frankel will be stepping up to 2000m so won't take on the 'superstar' BC.

Yeah it was pretty obvious she would win DriffPunter...because she is the best horse to grace this country since Phar Lap!

Southern Speed is a great mare who won the Caulfield Cup and won first up the other week!

DriffPunter is from the UK right?

Well if Frankel is stepping up to 2000m so he wont have to meet BC, couldn't you argue that their connections are running from BC too?

wow @ Driff, I will be looking for 2 points plus after that dribble

Frankel is a very good horse but grossly over rated, the fact Europe favour there own so much in the global ratings is ridiculous.

Frankel needs the 2000m as he will get bigger and stronger this season so he is not running away from anyone, and BC will only run the 1200m in the UK at the most as that is like the 1400m. Look at what Frankel has done to quality opposition:
Excelebration - Won the G1 Prix De Moulin De Longchamp and won 2 G2's by the combined length of 13 lengths.
Immortal Verse - Won 2 G1's by beating Goldikova once.
Dubawi Gold - 2nd in Irish and UK 2000 Guineas as well as 1length away in the Hong Kong Mile
Dick Turpin - Won 2 G1's and placed in 4 (excluding the wins)
Dream Ahead - Won 4 G1's
Canford Cliffs - Won 5 G1's and placed in 2
Roderick O'Connor - Won Irish 2000 Guineas
Natheniel - Won the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes
Native Khan - 5th in the Epsom Derby
Now if you can't say that isn't good form as Simon O'Donnell would say "put yourself into an asylum" Shall we have a look at BC opposition, starting with the 'Group race' on the 27/1/12.

Sure Frankel goes good, but prep him up for 1400m against our mare (fresh if you like) and all he sees is her rump as it gets further & further away!!

why does it take b\c to win overseas before she is hailed a champ. other aussie horses with nowhere near the talent she has have won over there.she has the temprement to win over 2000m and could easily win the cox plate if moody sets her for it.she settles so well and even manikato was placed over 2000m at wfa and he was a dead set spinter.lets get frenkel over here for a real challenge in the cox plate.

" Shall we have a look at BC opposition......" lol lol lol boy oh boy can some people get it wrong. DriffPunter Black Caviar is an 8 time Group 1 WINNER !!!! Just off the top of my head you can add the likes of Southern Speed, Playing God and Efficient to the list of Group 1 winners such as Wanted, Hay List, Hot Danish, Star Witness, Ortensia, Eagle Falls, Crystal Lily, Shoot Out, Response, Sniper's Bullet, Melito, Triple Honour, Black Piranha, Alverta, All Silent who have all been made to look 2nd rate behind Black Caviar. Then there are the likes of 'useless hacks' such as Karuta Queen, Buffering, Illo, Beaded, Hinchinbrook, Doubtful Jack, Demerit, Shellscrape, Winter King, Albert The Fat, Precedence etc etc who have also been beaten pointlessly !!!!!! To say she has beaten nothing is plain WRONG but also incredibly uninformed.....and she's not beating them she is embarrassing them ! She carved out a 21.70 last 400m and a 10.64 last 200m section and Nolen had her in a headlock. You quite obviously cannot be pleased pal.

lol child minded fools , $1.10 win or $1.90 quinell. See why u are running at a loss )

I'm not a hater, she looked awesome again yesterday, but that was a sprinter pantsing a field of resuming stayers, with the fitter stayer flopping into second. In order to make your list relevant Melbman you need to remove southern speed, playing god, precedence and illo

Frankel is the best horse in the world, no way would they take him to Oz, a relative backwater on the world stage, he will only race in Europe.

Black Caviar has to go to his turf and race him over a distance he is comfortable with (1600-1800m?). The only way it can possibly happen imo

My point is I hope that the connections of BC and Frankel for that matter, for the sake of sport, have a crack at each other. It would be a massive race, throw in SYT, Danedream, Orfevre, Mustard etc and you got a world heavyweight championship.....won't happen but fun dreaming about it.

I think Helmet might push BC if he jumped well and did everything right on a good track at 1400m.

Before yesterday Southern Speed had had 3 starts for 2 wins over 1400m incl. winning her prior run over 1400m as well as the Group 2 The Vanity at Flemington last Autumn beating Do Ra Mi who was flying then and who in turn went on to win the 1400m Kewney Stks beating Brazilian Pulse by 2.5l at her next start at Flemington. Playing God had had 4 starts for 1 win and 2 placings over 1400m. He's certainly NOT a stayer either. His Group 1 wins were at 1800m with that distance being the longest distance he's ever won over !! BOTH are Group 1 winners and BOTH were smashed by Black Caviar. She has left a long list of Group 1 winners in her wake and STILL people want to discredit her. She makes good horses look like maidens. The ONLY horse capable of beating Black Caviar at present is Sepoy imo. He's got a similar record and is open to improvement......Helmet would be more of a chance at a mile than 1400m imo however still feel Black Caviar has lengths on them. What price would Black Caviar start in a 1400m race against Sepoy and Helmet ??? She'd still be $1.20 - $1.25 imo. That's how great she is.......

Whose a child minded fool aus 1? 1.10 is still 10% profit, how can that be running at a loss.

I'm with u Sasquatch. I also still agree with what the Master said last year ''You just question the standard of sprinters running at this point in time,'' the 83-year-old said. ''They say she's the best in the world, well, that might be because the opposition here is not world class. ( Bart Cummings 12th Mar 2011). Bart now concedes we have a new Champion in our midst, and that should be enough for everyone. Europe can have their Champions and we can have ours. How many Champions from Europe have flopped when travelling abroad. I think its unfair for Black Caviar to have to race in some other crappy climate with all the associated risks. Keep her here so our young guns can have a crack at her in her prime at let our crowds enjoy watching her win.

She doesnt HAVE to go overseas, its a case of wanting to.

Going to sound like netl again but people always fear what they don't understand. Someone made the point that she can't be a champion till she faced adversity and overcomes it. The problem is she is far too good to be put in that position. She is as one announcer called her unparralled, she is head and shoulders above any other competition it's like she's not a horse but a machine. People see her win with such ease and assume it's something other than her greatness that's the cause of her dominance because no-one has seen it before. I definitely haven't and you have to doubt you will see it again.
If your quoting O'donnell driffpunter what about his comments about today's society. "people try to discredit today's champions instead of embracing them, if you don't think she is a champion you should be in an asylum". the term in tall poppy syndrome.

The term *is tall poppy syndrome

the main thing is we will all get a better price when she runs against better horses

Whatever we label them, whatever their 1400m records are, they were all semi-fit, all being set for longer assignments. Stop using irrelevant stats to boost your arguments. Look at your list of horses compared to that of that driff guy. It's embarrassing. Doubtful jack? Please. She is what she is; the most dominant sprinter of our era, perhaps the most dominant we've seen, but to say she is the best horse since phar lap (colonel) is someone's personal opinion, far from fact. You cannot go by stats because she's beating fields that may or may not match up to other eras. It's like saying ponting is our best batsman since bradman... How do we know he's any better than AB who had to face up against holding, garner, Marshall etc. Everyone just needs to calm down and enjoy the show because there aren't many champion horses around at the minute.

DriffPunter look what Black Caviar has done to quality opposition;

Hay List - Dual G1 winner and 2nd best sprinter in the world
Star Witness - Dual G1 winner, placed in G1 Kings Stand & Golden Jubilee, winner of $1.3M
Melito - Dual G1 winner, 5x G1 placed, winner of almost $2 Million
Hot Danish - 2x G1 Winner, winner of $2.33 Million
Crystal Lily - G1 Golden Slipper winner and $2.7 Million
All Silent - 2x G1 winner, performed in HK and Dubai, won $1.7 Million
Ortensia - G1 winner, beaten 2L by JJ the Jet Plane in HK Sprint, winner of $1.5 Million
Playing God - 2x G1 winner and $1.4 Million
Wanted - G1 Newmarket winner
Triple Honour - G1 Doncaster Handicap winner
Shoot Out - G1 AJC Derby & G1 Randwick Guineas winner
Southern Speed - G1 Caulfield Cup winner and $2.2 Million is prize money

and other G1 winners including Eagle Falls (performed in Dubai & Singapore), Beaded (6x G1 placed excluding wins), Alverta. Also Karuta Queen and Buffering.

Every single one of these runners has won well in excess of a million dollars

First of all, half of them are milers and stayers, do you remember More Joyous against Sepoy, couldn't keep up because she didn't have the speed to stay with a sprinter. Second, there is way too much prize money available in Australia as UK usually offers about $7000 on a Saturday whereas here it is $70000

More joyous has won 5 races from 1100m-1200m and one at 1300m. It wasn't the distance that caught her out against Sepoy - the fact she got cluttered up behind them on such a tight track might have had something to do with it ;) Also the fact Sepoy is probably a better horse

More joyous was first up as well. She raced dour that whole campaign due to gai setting her for the cox plate her previous campaign. She lost that turn off foot IMO. While sepoy probably had his highest rating in that race.

Hay List - Sprinter
Star Witness - Sprinter
Melito - Sprinter-Miler (Won G1 TJ Smith 1200m - 2nd G1 BTC Cup 1200m)
Hot Danish - Sprinter-Miler (Won G1 1300m, G1 1400m, G2 1200m, G2 1200m, G2 1300m, G3 1200m - 2nd in G1 TJ Smith 1200m)
Crystal Lily - Sprinter = G1 Golden Slipper - 1200m
All Silent - Sprinter
Ortensia - Sprinter (G1 1200m)
Playing God - G1 miler/1800m (Got beat over 1400m)
Wanted - Sprinter - G1 Newmarket winner 1200m
Triple Honour - Sprinter-Miler G1 Doncaster Handicap winner
Shoot Out - G1 AJC Derby & G1 Randwick Guineas winner
Southern Speed - Very good middle distance horse but won over 1400m listed before being demolished over the same course by BC

Eagle Falls - Sprinter
Beaded - Sprinter
Karuta Queen - Sprinter
Buffering - Sprinter

Sorry DriffPunter but you are wrong ;)

My list better :)

Your list is European so you automatically lost anyway ;)

@ Driff, what is with the "there is way too much prizemoney available in Australia" comment. I think the fact there is such good prize money available here, compared to everywhere else (except Japan) is what makes our racing so strong.

The FACTS are overwhelming. Black Caviar has beaten a long list of multiple Group 1 winners, Group 1 winners and very good gallopers. And she has beaten them ALL pointlessly with little effort, with most of her wins looking like nothing more than glorified track gallops. FACT !!!!! The reason we race for such good prizemoney compared to England is our racing, as a whole, is a superior product. We have both TAB/Tote and bookmakers and therefore a better wagering model, bigger crowds, better facilities which results in high wagering turnover and as a result of a superior wagering model a % of the wagering turnover is funnelled back into the industry.....As for More Joyous going down to Sepoy because she couldn't keep up with a sprinter ???? Geez do you know what you are talking about ? Sepoy missed the start before being urged to push forward to lead Buffering who tried to lead at all costs. They went hard the entire race with Sepoy up front and getting no peace from Buffering before he careered away to win by 3l. Sepoy had to do it at both ends. If ever More Joyous was going to beat Sepoy, who was a spring 3yo at that stage, it was that night !! More Joyous is a multiple Group 1,2 & 3 winner from 1,100m - 1,600m so if she's not a sprinter or sprinter/miler what is she ???? A stayer ?? A middle distance horse ?? lol lol She's never won beyond 1600m. In fact she's only raced beyond 1600m ONCE and she was well and truly found out.The reason she was beaten in the Manikato Stks, where the race was put on for her, was because Sepoy is a far superior racehorse. End of story ! Only 2 horses in history can be mentioned in the same breath as Black Caviar and they are Vain and Manikato. As good as they were who would your money be on over 1200m or 1400m ? As for Sepoy, well imo he could get into that elite company however there is no doubt Snowden is dodging Black Caviar (last spring and this Autumn). Black Caviar's programs have been the most known of any horse over the past year. They are obviously protecting his value as a stallion. His value would be enhanced if he beat her which tells me Snowden obviously thinks he cannot beat her.

I've heard Peter Snowden interviewed, where he was asked about taking on BC with Sepoy and he admitted that he was dodging her. He said Sepoy wasn't up to taking her on as a 3yo.

MelbMan i think you are forgetting a horse there:
mainbrace 25-23-1-1
definately should be mentioned in the same breath as black caviar IMO
Can we get black cav into the racing hall of fame like now please :))))

eagleillegal with respect to Mainbrace I was talking about sprinters or sprinter/milers. Hence the reason I didn't include names such as Carbine, Phar Lap, Tulloch, Kingston Town etc I don't know much about Mainbrace however I assume he was a middle distance/staying horse judging by his Derby, St Leger and Guineas wins ?

yeh fair call melbman hard to find the actual distances he won at, but 8 race records on different occassions is very impressive in any day and age. shame he was cut down so early in career

people should check this site out, has good footage and videos of some greats, including gloaming and desert gold
http://www.racinghalloffame.co.nz/Inductee-Videos/Horses/Racehorses/Gloaming

http://www.races.com.au/2011/04/05/rocket-man-jj-the-jet-plane-to-swoop-on-black-caviar-in-patinack-farm-classic-2011/
Pity it didn't occur...
JJ has raced around the World eg:
J J The Jet Plane prevails in Hong Kong Sprint so there is some competition out there.
WINDSOR J J The Jet Plane wins British debut - Horse Racing ...
J J The Jet Plane's epic win over Rocket Man is one for ages
Victorious JJ The Jet Plane now favourite for Dubai World Cup
http://www.thenational.ae/sport/horse-racing/underdogs-bark-loud-on-a-night-of-upsets-at-dubai-world-cup
May have been a good race rocket man, BC and JJ.

Black Caviar would have handled Rocket Man, JJ The Jet Plane, Sacred Kingdom etc and even Silent Witness easily in my opinion. What people need to realise is she is not just winning she has won every start easily and without being fully extended. How many of her races could have her already big winning margins been extended or even doubled ? On average she wins by 3.5l each and every time she races. She's doing this under hands and heels riding unextended and over sprint trips, where you expect margins to be closer. She's the most dominant horse on the planet along with Frankel.

Yeh she had a shake up at the 200m in the tj smith and had to hit the line then. Even more impressive was how she accelerated and picked him up in a couple of bounds.

Watch the Lightning Stakes again!! Its incredible. The way she won on Saturday I would love to see her come back next year for the Doncaster. It may be akin to setting Miss Finland or Weekend Hussler for Caulfield Cup but once she has won every big sprint on the planet why not set her for the ultimate test in what if I were and owner would be (along with the Cox Plate) the race I would most like to win. And honestly the way she won the Orr she is an unknown quantity at 1600m.

Only one problem........what weight would she get in a Doncaster ? 63 - 64kg's ?

To win a Doncaster you have to be a class middle distance horse IMO. Even though it's a 1600m race it's a genuine pace and winners are generally strong at the 1600. Sprinters/milers who run up to 1600 are usually found out.
If she is set for longer moody has to change his trainers tactics significantly. Too much of a risk if he gets it wrong, its not like she needs to enhance her status as a broodmare. IMO I don't think it would be a very god business decision although it would be great for racing.

Weekend Hustler!!! anybody remember

I would love to of seen a match race between Sunline and Black Caviar over 1600m at set weights

now your'e talkin dener3

super impose was better than sunline )

how about knockout match racing rounds then? like a Grand slam...lol

we just need horse float sized time machines to make it happen!

The problem with Super V BC is she would dawdle along in front and out sprint him at the end, she couldn't do that to Sunline. You need to match styles plus ability in a 1 on 1 horse race

But if you are putting some pace makers in the race it becomes a whole other story lol

thats why i love the cup so mubh . 2 mile and ño excuses

For those who still doubt her quality saying she`s not beaten much here are some stats provided by for jockey Miracle Mal Johnston on Black Caviar`s beaten brigade.

Black Caviar:
* won 18 from 18
* combined winning margin 61.75 lengths (avg 3.5L)

The Horses she has beaten:
* Have combined earnings of $67,965,000
* They are the winners of 37 G1 races.
* They are the winners of 37 G2 races.
* They are the winners of 33 G3 races.

Group One Races won by the beaten brigade:
King`s Stand
Newmarket (twice)
Lightning Stks
Manikato
Stradbroke (3 Times)
T.J. Smith
Doncaster
Slipper
Doomben 10,000 (Twice)
Blue Diamond
Oakleigh Plt
and a
Caulfield Cup.

Hasn`t beat much ! Turn it up.

Love it Lilydale Steve. Enormous effort to come up with those stats. Some people are just uneducated, misinformed, or jelous as hell. All you can do is shake your head at some of the muppets out there who feel it's a necessity to knock a once in a lifetime horse.

she just makes all her rivals look second rate